This is a transcript of the May 28 Munk Dialogue with David Brooks, columnists for The New York Times, and Rudyard Griffiths, the chair of the Munk Debates. This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
Reshaping American society
Rudyard Griffiths: In the past you have commented that America seems to have lost its way in some respects. Do you believe that this pandemic has done anything to help American society to refocus on what is important both for individuals and for the society as a whole?
David Brooks: I take a maximalist view on how much this is going to affect us. Sometimes a big event happens and it has only a temporary effect in the U.S.
9/11 had an effect on people – there was more religious attendance, more volunteering to give more blood – but that only lasted nine months. After that, everything was back to normal.
On the other hand, the people who grew up in the Second World War era had a very good sense that we work together, both in Canada and the United Sattes, social trust was very high and that mentality lasted 60 years.
The reason I think this pandemic is a big event and will have a pivotal effect is that it’s not only a tragedy and disaster that’s hitting us, but it’s hitting us in the middle of a social crisis.
We already had a social crisis – rich and poor divisions, white and black, all sorts of social divisions – this earthquake. And then the pandemic hits us like a hurricane. It’s a hurricane in the middle of an earthquake, and the hurricane is coursing water down through the ravines that were already split open. To me, this is a very unusual period where we have two sorts of crises happening at once.
It makes sense to me that this has a big social effect.
The key word I pick up on in this current crisis is precariousness. People already felt very precarious: Their incomes were moving up and down. Their employment was precarious. Now their health is precarious.
The keyword going forward will be security: “How can I be secure? How can I feel myself surrounded by some sort of order?”
I think you will see a big shift in attitudes toward government, a real desire for government to be more active. You could call it a shift left, but I think it is a shift that is conservative left. Government will be active, but maybe socially, a little more conservative about ideas about immigration and social experimentation.
The national interest
Griffiths: How do we get back to choosing the greater good over winning at virtually any cost – the national interest over personal ambition? Are there specific policies that you could see that would help in that transition? Or is this something that has to come from the bottom up?
Brooks: I think it’s both. In the 1890s, you had a big economic transition, industrialization, waves of immigration. But you had deep urban poverty, wide inequality. The culture turned around in three ways. First, there was a cultural shift: the social gospel movement replaced social Darwinism. Then you had a civic renaissance with the Boys and Girls Scouts, NAACP, the environmental movement, the temperance movement. And, finally you had the progressive political movement.
I think we’re going through something like that. There’s a cultural movement, and we’re seeing a civic renaissance with all sorts of organizations springing up to serve their local community. Politically, in the U. S., the policy that seems blindingly obvious to me is a national service program. Make it a rite of passage for young people to serve their country somewhere other than where they live.
Right now, we need about 300,000 workers to do the tracking and tracing. We have an entire generation of college and high school graduates with no jobs, no educational prospects and no chance to really travel. We should take that workforce and give them something to do. That would be one obvious policy.
The future
Griffiths: Everyone thinks COVID-19 will finally wake people up to the gross inequalities of capitalism. How will this pandemic change our politics, culture, society in the decade to come?
Brooks: I think we’ve done a good job, in the last 60 years, of giving people at the top of society room to run. Giving them educational opportunities. Unfortunately, the top 20 per cent have outcompeted and they have built structures so it’s hard for the bottom 80 per cent to get into certain schools or certain jobs.
There’s a mass of people at the supertop who are insulated from risk.
The people in the bottom 80 per cent have high risk and low reward. That shift in risk is the key thing that’s emerged. People competed and they passed their advantages down to their kids, building a shelter for people in the educated class.
Shifting that, so there’s lower risk and higher reward for people in the bottom 80 per cent has got to be the agenda for the future. Rethinking our meritocracy has got to be the agenda for the future. We’ve just come to the dead end that has been recognized both on the right and the left, in different ways. That’s why I think change is coming.
Previously in the Munk Dialogues
Kara Swisher
Technology journalist Kara Swisher discusses how global tech giants like Google and Amazon will emerge from COVID-19. Along with existing juggernauts growing even larger and weighing privacy against virus tracking, she sees a potential for a renewed "America 2.0."
The Globe and Mail
April 9: Malcolm Gladwell
Author and journalist Malcolm Gladwell discussed the far-reaching impact of the coronavirus pandemic on refugees, conflict and the economy, in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths from the Munk Debates.
The Globe and Mail
April 15: Fareed Zakaria
Journalist and author Fareed Zakaria argued that Canada needs to use its positive influence on the United States so it can contribute to international solutions.
The Globe and Mail
April 23: Mohamed El-Erian
Economist Mohamed El-Erian says that the coronavirus shutdown will create a buyer's market for real estate, offset by reduced incomes putting stress on the whole sector. El-Erian was in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths from the Munk Debates.
The Globe and Mail
April 30: Samantha Power
Samantha Power was a U.S. ambassador to the United Nations under the Obama administration. She says a postcoronavirus, and possibly post-Trump, world is one where medium powers like Canada can form new blocs of co-operation. Ms. Power was in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths of the Munk Debates.
The Globe and Mail
May 6: Niall Ferguson
Historian Niall Ferguson compares COVID-19 to past global sicknesses, likening it to a flu pandemic that hit in the 1950s. He also says the coronavirus will accelerate the emergence of a new Cold War between China and the U.S. Mr. Ferguson was in conversation with Rudyard Griffiths from the Munk Debates.
The Globe and Mail
May 28: David Brooks
David Brooks, New York Times columnist, political commentator and author, joins Rudyard Griffiths from the Munk Debates for a discussion of politics and society after COVID-19.
Visit munkdebates.com for more information. The livestreams will also be embedded on The Globe and Mail website.